Volcano nozzle experience: mostly successful, but worse cooling?

[bcat]

Others have written about using volcano-style nozzles on the SV06 ACE and Plus ACE, with the consensus being that they should work fine so long as the threaded portion is long enough for the nozzle to bottom out on the heatbreak. That seems to be the case, but I noticed overhangs are worse with the volcano nozzle, which I suspect is a cooling issue.

I specifically tried a Micro Swiss CM2 nozzle, as I wanted a hardened nozzle for abrasive filaments, and I wasn’t too happy with Sovol’s own hardened steel nozzle (low flow and poor temp control even after PID tuning).

The nozzle tightened up to the heatbreak without issues. In fact, there’s a slightly larger gap between the nozzle and heater block than with a stock Sovol nozzle:

But the overall length of the nozzle is quite a bit shorter than the stock nozzle. The nozzle probe means there’s no need to manually adjust Z offset, which is really convenient. And the nozzle prints normally, without leaks. But I noticed that overhangs look significantly worse with the volcano nozzle than a stock one, even using the exact same filament and slicer settings.

For comparison, here is a print with a stock Sovol brass nozzle that shows clean overhangs:

And there’s the same model printed with the volcano nozzle and otherwise all the same setup, showing messy overhangs at the top:

I did a PID tune on the new nozzle, and I also tried increasing and decrease my usual printing temp for this filament slightly to rule out different thermal conductivity for the new nozzle. But this didn’t make a difference in the overhangs.

My working hypothesis is that the fan shroud is optimized for the stock nozzle length, and with a shorter nozzle, the most recently deposited layer of filament doesn’t get as much airflow at the same fan speed. If that’s the case, I wonder if it’s possible to remix the stock fan shroud to work better with shorter nozzles. (Sadly I have no CAD skills yet, though it’s on my list to learn at some point.)

Has anyone else who installed a volcano nozzle on their printer seen the same issue with cooling? (It could be something unrelated to the nozzle height difference, but I’ve tried to rule out all the other possibilities as best I could.)

[lee_the_wyrm]

This is fascinating–I appreciate the comparison. I was wondering about third party nozzles and just ordered several knock-off E3D volcano nozzles from a reputable Canadian shop. I’ll post/reply once I experiment with them. They are due to arrive in ten days or so.

[Oliver]

Thanks for the info! I’ve already tested it and installed a K1 nozzle for Creality printers. The difference to the Sovol nozzle is only 0.5mm. In my case, the nozzle is from Fysetc, made of steel and has a diameter of 0.5mm. I’m a bit of a fan of 0.5mm nozzles. The print quality with Arachne is barely distinguishable from 0.4mm, but with 50% more throughput, it prints much faster. Furthermore, the nozzle doesn’t clog as quickly with carbon or fiberglass.

I’ve discovered another option, though. There are 6mm adapters for Quidi nozzles, and these, when used with a Creality Sprite nozzle, produce exactly the right length. I just haven’t tested them yet. The tip geometry of both also matches the original Sovol nozzle.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006909414562.html

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006103060890.html

[cardoc]

K1 nozzles are 2mm longer than volcano and only .5 mm shorter than the stock ace nozzle. Work fine on my SV07

[bcat]

@lee_the_wyrm For sure, let us know how they work out for you! There isn’t a ton of data about the ACE printers online yet vs. older Sovol printers, so I’m hoping we can gather some recommendations for third-party parts, etc.

@Oliver @cardoc That is good to know! I didn’t realize the K1 nozzles were compatible too. I wonder if they are better from a cooling prespective, since they have the same tip shape and nearly the same overall length as Sovol’s own nozzles.

The nozzle adapters are very interesting too. I wonder if the cutout for the hex key causes any weirdness due to the widened melt zone. But a cool option if they work!

[cardoc]

Nozzle adapters… Funny I was just at McMaster looking for small hex broaches. Was going to cut down some copper volcano nozzles and make my own. Alas M4 is as small as they go.

I wouldn’t expect any issues while printing. Plastic should be well liquified that far into the nozzle. No old school “cold pull” though. Still one of the best ways to get crap out of a half plugged nozzle.

16.8 + 6.5 = 23.3. Is .3 mm worth the effort over the K1 nozzle?

Keep us posted

[SV08_user]

A hex shaped hole in the nozzle could improve layer adhesion, I think

Round holes in nozzle , more gaps between each strand of filament layed.. OK melt together but cooling as it does :-

OOOOO
OOOOO

A hex shaped could fit together more as strands get layered.

[bakers.realm]

A hex shaped hole would potentially have uneven heating though. The nozzle would be thinner at the corners of the hex. Plus you are dealing with round filament which is easiest to start into feeding the printer than trying to fit a hex shaped filament into a hex shaped hole blind. Try fitting an allen wrench into a screw where you can’t see the screw head or fitting a socket onto a bolt on the back side of an engine by feel.

[jssamp]

The cross section of the filament and the hole in the tip of the nozzle are not required to be the same. The plastic melts in the hot end and is forced through the nozzle, taking whatever shape the nozzle has so it can get out of the way of that pushy plastic behind it.

As for those two tasks you mention at the end, I do that regularly. Lots of things have fasteners in places my head won’t fit.

[Oliver]

The K1 nozzle works quite well for me. @Lion also installed the nozzle. I haven’t tested it with the adapter yet.

[billbrach]

Think about the prints we could get, if the nozzle had a square hole, and the gcode was able to rotate it, to match what was being printed. Even without rotation, you could get way better corners on prints that have a lot of square features !!

[jssamp]

If only we could precisely control surface tension and gravity. But by the time we figure that out we will probably be using replicators instead of printers.

[bcat]

A bit more data; it seems to me that maybe not every K1 nozzle is compatible. Specifically, I tried these “bimetal” (nickel-platted copper, hardened steel tip) nozzles because they had the specs I wanted, but the thread length is just a bit too short. The nozzle bottoms out on the heater block rather than tightening up against the heatbreak.

Looking more closely, the K1 nozzle you used lists a 15mm length for the threaded portion, which is 0.5mm shorter than the Sovol nozzle (15.5mm thread length), but should be close enough to work. However, the K1 nozzles I tried have a shorter thread (about 14.7mm), which isn’t quite long enough:

I would have tried to screw the heatbreak in a little farther to make up this small difference, but it was locked up with something or another from the factory, and doesn’t want to budge. I didn’t want to break it with too much leverage, so for now I’m considering the K1 nozzles I purchased “incompatible”.

Finally, here are the three nozzle types I tried. I lined them up as best I could. From top to bottom: Polisi3d K1 nozzle (thread 14.7mm, just a bit too short to work), Micro Swiss CM2 volcano nozzle (thread 16mm, installs fine, but shorter overall length leads to suboptimal cooling), stock brass Sovol nozzle (thread 15.5mm):

I don’t really want to buy more nozzles to experiment on right now, but I figured I’d share what I found. For now, I’ll use the CM2 nozzle only for abrasives (and just live with worse overhangs for there), and stick with the stock brass nozzle for normal prints. (And maybe I can return the K1 nozzles as I wasn’t able to use them…)

That said, if someone is able to remix a slightly shorter fan duct, then I think most any volcano nozzle would work well. (Sadly that’s outside my skillset today, but maybe someday!)

[Oliver]

Thank you for the feedback! It’s a shame! I find it really stupid that every manufacturer makes their own nozzles and prevents any interchangeability. Especially since Sovol itself only offers one size (0.4 mm) for steel nozzles. I already knew that the K1 nozzle would be very scarce. I didn’t realize it would be this scarce. I don’t want to remove the nozzle now to measure, and I’m not sure whether the next batch from Fysetc will have the same dimensions. Then it must have been a lucky find. So you should probably consider whether installing a spacer ring between the hotend and the nozzle is possible. If you insert a 2 mm pin from above as a guide to position the washer, the washer should take over the function of the step on the threaded end of the nozzle, and you might still be able to use this great nozzle.
(I hope I was able to express myself clearly despite my poor English. )

[bcat]

No worries, you are perfectly understandable. I agree it’s really unfortunate that different printer manufactures (and even different models from the same manufacturer!) use nozzles that are so similar, but not 100% compatible. I like the ACE a lot, but I do wish Sovol had built and shipped around standard volcano nozzles, especially since it’s already so close.

[cardoc]

I considered “remixing” the ACE duct but when I looked at the fan shroud on the ACE and found it is already considerably HIGHER than other models. The lowest point on the ACE fan duct is 7.0 mm above the tip of the ideal nozzle in the model. In comparison my SV07 shows 1.8mm (consistent with my volcano test).
I no longer have access to CFD software but to my eye it appears the ACE delivers lots of low velocity nearly straight down. “Typical” fan ducts deliver high velocity air at a flatter angle.
My feeling is that the shorter volcano nozzle is being shrouded by the silicone boot of the heater. If I’m correct raising the duct would result in LESS cooling at the tip of the volcano nozzle.

3mf Model of both ducts attached. ACE has 2x the fan but around 8x the opening in the outlet end of the duct.

Ace VS 07 Fan.zip (3.3 MB)

ALSO the hardened nozzles from Sovol for the 6+ and 7 are available in 0.6 and 0.8 and are 23.5 mm long. Another thread on here reports they work well on the ACE. I have used them on the 7 and they work well but not as well as the bimetal V6 nozzles on my other printer.

[bcat]

Interesting, I suspect you are right. I wonder why Sovol went with that duct design rather than the more “traditional” style. (It seems to work well enough with the stock nozzle length, though.)

As for the silicone sock, I suppose one option would be to cut it back to expose more of the volcano nozzle. But I don’t have extras of those, so I won’t go cutting mine up just now.

[billbrach]

They make special washers called “copper sealing washers”. Common on engine oil drain plugs on automobiles. I’ll bet one of these could be found of the right dimensions, to accomodate a shorter nozzle.

[cardoc]

I considered the copper (or soft aluminum) washer idea. The heat break to nozzle joint has some intrinsic issues that go beyond the final installed position of the tip. With softer metals this joint works okay, titanium heat break against a hardened steel nozzle presents difficulties with both creating a fluid tight joint AND torque retention. A soft metal gasket would help both problems.

It, however presents new issues:

1. On “crush” the outside diameter gets bigger wedging into the threads
2. On “crush” the inside diameter gets smaller potentially blocking the filament path
3. When removing the nozzle the washer needs to be extracted before the hot end cools and it gets encased in hardened plastic. This makes nozzle changes 10x more difficult

These would make the K1 nozzle fit the ACE. I hope someone will try them and report back

[billbrach]

I think, from your reply, you are thinking of putting the washer in the throat. I’m thinking between the nozzle and the heat block. But, I remember someone saying that the heat break could not be lowered in the heat block ?? If it is pressed in, this might be an issue. Also, I’m not sure how much “crushing” is going to go on, before you would have tightened the nozzle so much that you stripped the threads. Additionally, PTFE can work up to 260C, so that’s probably high enough for most folks, especially if there are significant benefits to the majority, by using different nozzles. PTFE washers comes in all kinds of sizes.